Sustainability Now Virtual Conference

Sustainability Now is an online event covering sustainability in the built environment.

It’s live and has a full conference programme together with exhibition areas and opportunities to network, debate and exchange ideas. It points the way ahead as a virtual event which can be easily accessed from a desk. Run over two days, the conference was the most successful ever with over 2000 attendees.

So Tuffin Ferraby Taylor were delighted to be asked to facilitate the Big Debate on Wednesday, 18^th May. The subject was ‘Green Leases and how to avoid sustainably obsolete buildings’ and TFT Partner Seth Love-Jones fearlessly stepped in to host the proceedings.

Detailed below is a transcript of Seth’s topic – ‘The Big debate – Green Leases and how to avoid sustainably obsolete buildings:

.Seth Love-Jones: Interesting discussions so far. Now for a slight change of tack. Welcome to the big debate on green leases and how to avoid sustainably obsolete buildings. An interesting combination of issues both of which impact on property value, so let the debate commence …

Fabia Pennington … @seth green leases! good question.....

.Seth Love-Jones: We are accustomed to the concepts of functional, structural and geographical obsolescence of property. But ‘sustainability obsolescence’ is where a property becomes obsolete as a direct result of its poor sustainability characteristics. If the sustainability credentials of a particular property (such as energy efficiency, configuration or future adaptability) cannot be improved within certain financial parameters then that building will be obsolete.

Fabia Pennington:@seth so you mean that if the building can’t be improved or renovated in the future, it's created a dead-end for itself?

Jon Dickins: The standard institutional lease is not fit for purpose when it comes to improving existing stock because cost savings from more efficient energy use take time and often would be longer than the lease term. Might the Green Deal be the answer?

.Seth Love-Jones:@Fabia - indeed. The trouble is that with existing buildings there a reluctance to identify them.

Mat Lown:Seth - What role do you see green leases playing in avoiding obsolescence?

Fabia Pennington:@seth a reluctance to identify obsolete buildings?

.Seth Love-Jones:@Mat - it will provide a mechanism by which l/l and tenants can make improvements in the short and long term.

Lisa Taylor:@Seth - as Fabia asked, what do you mean by "reluctance to identify" existing buildings? Interesting aspect to retrofit barrier...

.Seth Love-Jones:@Fabia - very much so. At acquisition the due diligence process routinely assess structure etc but for existing buildings there is very rarely a review of the green issues. A sustainability audit is the way forward in these circumstances.

Fabia Pennington:@seth the building manager and tenant relationship is important - they need to continue to encourage each other.

Fabia Pennington:Especially if the tenant does not have sustainability agenda. because they can't see the benefit of this to their day to day work (apart from cutting their rent bills)
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Jon Wilcox:I think most clients have an ethical agenda - more often they get confused by the options - and uncertainty about costs - consumer and investor pressure is quite high.

. Seth Love-Jones:Another way to view this is to look at property value. Currently there is no proven link between the value of a property and its sustainability credentials (or greenness). However, it can be argued that if a building is identified as substandard from a sustainability perspective it will be devalued, much the same way as if it is in disrepair. Have you experienced this?

Diana Tellwright-Watkin:As A DEA. I regularly assess listed buildings which achieve very low ratings, but the owner is desperate to improve the energy efficiency and is prevented from doing so by the planning authority, If there is a movement to prevent the sale or rental of low rated properties, this issue needs to be addressed.

Jon Wilcox:I advised the NWDA and we sought a 2 level improvement in energy efficiency for refurbisment projects - maybe from D to B.

Jonathon Moreels:@Seth, wont a link develop naturally as energy prices continue to rise and people see the day to day benefits of sustainable homes. This is not necessarily the best way to look at saving the planet but it is something that effects people and can be noticed.

Fabia Pennington:@diana very good point! Could you argue that something is permitted development if the DEC report recommends it? I would vote no, but maybe there is a different planning term for something that is in between permitted and not permitted?

Fabia Pennington:"permitted-ish".

Rashad Sufyan:It's quite a pity that from where i come from sustainability isn't looked at as a major part of a design process. I think for immediate changes to happen we must look towards a healthier built environment...(Like starting from the general and moving towards the specific).

Mat Lown:My discussions with occupiers, owners and advisers suggest that there is a consensus building that something needs to be done and that the existing institutional lease does not facilitate collaboration (essential for improving existing commercial properties). Could it be that rather than changing leases by inserting green clauses, it's time to reconsider/redefine the landlord and tenant relationship? Perhaps it's time for a new form of lease?

Michael Dignan:@ Diana. I agree with your statement about Planning. There needs to be some sort of agreed principles whereby listed/ historic buildings can be improved. Is the building fabric absolutely sacrosanct.

Jon Dickins:If sustainability becomes analogous to repair then again we will see the limitations of the standard commercial lease - as usually the tenant is responsible for repair. But will tenants want to be responsible for sustainability as well, when it will take a long time for them to see the benefits - longer maybe than their lease term?

Diana Tellwright-Watkin:when owners are refused permission to fit secondary double glazing, when it cant be seen from the outside, i think the big issue is that planning departments are controlling the efficiency of buildings over the building regs or any strategies that contractors/ owners or tenants would like to use.

.Seth Love-Jones:@Mat - agreed, fully. But given the volume of leases out there and the slow uptake of green terms in the commercial sector a stepped approach is needed. I am thinking here of the bolting on of Memorandums of Understanding to FRI leases initially and then the transition between light green 'I aim to...' lease and finally onto dark green 'I will ...' leases. It is the Dark Green where the real benefits will be.

Jon Wilcox:political pressure will change that - when carbon reductions are mandated more effectively.

Jon Wilcox:funny - but i can’t see lawyers leading the Green revolution.

Jonathon Moreels: I'm not even allowed a TV aerial on my house never mind solar panels....I have tried and argued...but no!...and my house is not listed...just in a world heritage site!

Michael Dignan:What's the Government's stance over the powers of Planning Depts? A balance needs to be struck between the importance of the history of the built environment and the need to reduce emissions.

Jon Dickins:Lawyers will be happy to lead the Green revolution if they can make money out of redrafting and negotiating leases to include "green" clauses!:).

Jon Wilcox:good point Jon ... that could make them Greener than Cameron even.

Rashad Sufyan:I think there also needs to be a bit of cooperation between construction managers and architects...maybe together they could address the common issues and find an even solution..."Maybe".

Lisa Taylor:@ Diana, Michael, Fabia - re listed buildings, 'invisible' technology is coming (eg German double-glazing that works with leaded windows). Until then, perhaps 'special circumstance' planning permission?

.Seth Love-Jones:@ Jon Wilcox - lawyers are definitely on board with the green revolution. Maybe though it is the [property] sector as a whole that needs to push forward with changes. The first step needs to be undersanding the scale of the issue so all building owners and users need to take stock of what they have (not just in terms of energy use) and work from there. Audit - assess - improve!

Jon Wilcox:ManchesterTown Hall is being refurbished - hopefully they will share the learning.

Fabia Pennington:@lisa thanks.

Mat Lown:@ Jon (D) - Repairing, restoring and pro-longing the life of a building and its components is inherently sustainable. Perhaps lessons can be learnt from how we take care of our historic buildings? This could in turn inform a landlord's approach to a tenant's repairing obligations.

Jon Wilcox:we have to learn better passive ways of insulating exisiting buildings i'm sure - ive refurbished a few historic buildings and I don’t recall enhancing thermal efficiency much at all.

Ray Khan:There comes a point where demolish and use the materials to rebuild is the best totally sustainable option.

Jon Dickins:@Mat I agree. I think the difficulty comes with improving buildings for sustainability mid term with existing leases. Standard lease terms do not generally allow for this. In future tenants will be wary of accepting liability for statutory compliance when it could make them responsible for improvements required by retrospective legislation.

Fabia Pennington:@ray yes - but how you determine that again comes down to convincing the client. I would be surprised to find a client that doesn't know what they want the outcome to be before you test demolish Vs rebuild.

Jonathon Moreels:@ Lisa any examples / case studies for this invisible technology? Anything to suggest what other things might be in the pipeline? I have seen companies offering PV within windows, is that the sort of technology you are talking about?

.Seth Love-Jones:Many thanks to everyone of you who have taken part in this very interesting discussion on green leases and how to avoid sustainably obsolete buildings. If you want carry on the debate or discuss one-to-one any issues raised please feel free to contact me at .

For more information about the event visit: www.sustainabilitynowevent.com.